Reader Case Study: Yearning For a Debt-Free Future

78 Comments

1. It isn’t real clear but I guess this is where I comment on Micheal & Brian’s questions.
   1- Get a prenup. I did this after 2 divorces where attempts to ruin my retirement were made and got shortchanged on home owning. It was very difficult to discuss money! But it clarified a lot of things and now neither one of us has worries as we are in Medicare age.
   2- Keep funds his/his/ours. Contribute to Ours by percent of income as recommended by Suze Orman. (Writer of financial books – good advice).
   3- Pay off own debts as quickly as possible without feeling deprived; feeling deprived will lead to a spending spree.
   4- If either of you are compulsive shoppers have 3 ideas;
   – join Debtors Anonymous, use their spending plan categories.
   – curate your treasures instead of adding to collection, make sure you are fully enjoying them
   – read up on where spending money actually leads to happiness; events and people more enjoyable than stuff.

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   1. We also do his/hers/ours and it generally eliminates a lot of issues. The other rule is no spending money we don’t have, and if there’s an emergency requiring cash from the emergency fund, that money needs to be built back up first.

      Tracking spending as a couple is foundational. It’s very easy to place financial blame on the other partner. Review everything as a whole.

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2. I love this case study – Michael and Brian are doing amazingly well and I can see lots of opportunities ahead for them. As someone with advanced degrees that made very little difference in my career (at this point in my life), I just wanted to suggest Brian look at any tuition reimbursement programs through the state of CT. I started my PhD while working for a University since they covered 2-3 classes per semester – took 1 class to see if I liked the program, and if I could balance the schoolwork with my job. I decided since I was already there and it was being paid for it was worth me pursuing, but I would not have paid out of pocket for the program or taken on student loan debt. Depending on the field he wants to pursue a degree in, too, there may be other opportunities for Brian that would include covering his tuition. Best of luck to them both!

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   1. Also had the experience of a PhD that did very little to contribute to salary increase but was incredibly stressful for many years. Finally got my huge student debt forgiven with PSLF but it definitely was not worth it.

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3. “it’s important to remember that while money makes life better and easier, it doesn’t solve life for you.” Great advice Liz. Good luck Michael and Brian!

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4. I do believe you guys are doing better than you think you are. If I remember correctly, the old benchmark is to have one year of salary in your retirement account by age 35 and I believe you might hit that mark with your current plan. I have a 2006 suv and I am finding that repair bills are huge on it now. I just took it in to be serviced and found out that it needs $4,000 worth of work with another $1,500 in the near future and my car is in very good condition for its age. The repair guy said it was not unusual to see $15,000 to $20,000 worth of repair come in at this stage on my make/model. You might want to talk to a mechanic to see what they suggest and guestimate future repairs so you can budget ahead of time. The other long-term question with cars is replacement. Might want to consider a separate line of savings for this as this might be the other surprise stressor that pops up sometime in your budget. Enjoy your new kittens. On the housing question, realtor has a rough estimate monthly payment calculator you could look at and then compare to your current housing situation and then figure out what the difference is per square foot and then ask yourself if x amount of space is worth the extra money per month (contentment question) and decide long term if it is worth saving for. I have found getting in touch with my values and spending based on them, gratefulness, and thanksgiving to be vital keys to contentment. Good luck on your journey.

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5. Marriage now, you don’t know the results of the next election. In your case, beter act now to insure each other rights.
   Do you need 2 cars if one is seldomly used.
   Pay your debts with speeds and commitment, see if you can roll over into an other no interest credit card. A bank should be a money maker for you, not the other way around.
   Rethink the pleasures given by ownership of things, how much is it. Was the amount of hours of work worth it.

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6. Oh wow I had to come straight here to say that I HATE the insertion of the “hire me” widget into the reader case study. The intros/disclaimers were already way too longer IMHO but I didn’t mind scrolling past that, in order to get to the good stuff. But inserting that just felt….disappointing. I held off on saying anything with the new website design bc I wanted to give it time. But I would strongly encourage you to consider removing that from the case study design. It’s just…not what I come to this site and particularly this feature for.

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   1. I felt the same way…

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   2. But it’s so easy to scroll past…just like all the other intro stuff

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      1. Easy to scroll past but made me cringe. Truly doesn’t belong there.

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   3. I’d been missing the old look, feel & site set up in general of the Old Frugalwoods. I was also startled by this today. I recognize I am consuming free content by someone who also offers paid content…but I am glad to see I am not the only one struggling with the changes.

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   4. Mrs. F is running a business in which she gives and gives and gives content that is amazing for free on such a regular basis that if we have to scroll our fingers for an extra second i think we can all manage. she has spent 1,000’s of hours helping people change their lives and had to tie herself into a knot to even think of charging for her services almost with an apology. the new website is great. keep up the amazing work.

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      1. Wonderfully said, Eric. Could the banner take up a little less real estate on the page? Maybe. But the ire at a businesswoman daring to offer her services on her own free, valuable blog is wild to me.

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      2. 100% agree with Eric’s comment.

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   5. Agreed!
      With the site changes, I feel I’m being hit over the head with “hire me” messages.
      And quite honestly, seeing the “hire me” message at the top of the reader case study felt a little …desperate.

      If anything it should be a small non-graphical message perhaps at the bottom of the case study study comments to say something like “ if you would like a similar personalized assessment of your own financial situation I can help” with a link to your Hire. Me pages.

      I say this as a long-time reader and 20+ years in technology marketing, including online.

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      1. Agree, I say with love and good intentions that this is not good placement from a marketing perspective.

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   6. I agree that it struck an odd tone. Maybe there is a way to put it somewhere else on the page?

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      1. I completely agree.

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   7. Totally agree. Please re-think this.

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7. Another thing to think about before rolling over your old 401k to an IRA is future Roth IRA contributions. If your future MAGI goes over the income limits then you have to do a back door Roth. When you do a back door Roth any assets in traditional IRAs (like a rollover IRA) will be subject to the pro rata rule/tax implications. If your old 401k plan has good options you might want to keep it there.

   I wish we hadn’t moved ours. It’s been too complicated to roll over back over into the current 401k (and not all plans allow). So now we are missing out on the tax advantages.

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8. Wanted to specifically comment on Brian’s desire to do a graduate degree. I am in my 40s and just recently finished a graduate degree – best thing I ever did going back to school in my 40s – and like you Brian, I am now convinced of the benefits of lifelong learning.
   I would encourage you to look overseas for online international programs. I am with University of London and found the course to be half the price of the same course at an American college. As well as that, with an international program you are studying with people from all over the world which gives you a much more global perspective, and there is much to learn from that alone.

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9. Liz is right. You have the important stuff figured out and the rest is…details. Details that can keep you up at night worrying, but details nonethless. I generally agree with Liz’ advice but with two caveats. First, I am very hesitant to recommend that Michael’s pain relief massage and therapy/coaching be eliminated. Without knowing details that are frankly none of my business, I would consider these fixed unless Michael decides that they are, in fact, discretionary.
   Second, make sure that there is no penalty before you move the old 401K. There generally is not but we have a 403B (similar vehicle) that includes a poison pill if you move it before retirement age. My financial advisor discovered this when he was consolidating our accounts and, despite the fact that I pay him based on the value of my assets under his control (while he gives me recommendations for managing all of my assets), he recommended that I leave it where it was (he is a wonderful human being and an excellent advisor). Just make sure you can move it without any issues like that before you roll it over.
   Third, if you really want to continue your education, check if your employer will pay for your proposed master’s degree and, if so, what the requirements are for reimbursement.
   I love the above comment about curating your treasures and agree wholeheartedly with JackeRose! It can be hard to be selective when many objects spark joy but you will get more pleasure out of your treasures when you are able to feature them in your home. That is much easier to do when there are fewer things to highlight – particularly with mischievous kittens around!
   My final comment is for Liz. I was a tad startled by the new hire me insertion but that is just because I have been following you forever, the new design is a change, and change of any kind can be hard. It is your website to do with as you wish, the new addition is not overly pushy or intrusive, and I appreciate all of the wonderful work that you without financial compensation. I see nothing wrong with you reminding readers that you do have a compensated business model available as well.

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10. Normally I am all for Liz’s “tough love” with what she considers reduceable versus discretionary, but I was very disappointed to see Therapy labeled as a discretionary cost. Mental health care is health care. Period.

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    1. Agreed, and same with medical/pain relief massage. I’d call these reduceable or even fixed if there isn’t an equivalent lower-cost provider available.

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    2. I felt the same way! Therapy should be considered a fixed expense, just as medical is a fixed expense.
       In addition, not sure why renter’s insurance is fixed, but car insurance is reducible.

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11. Michael and Brian are doing great! My main observation reading through is that they have a lot of “shoulds” on their goal list – I think Brian even put it as “hitting adult milestones.” I’m not going to deny the power of these, but it’s so helpful to reflect on what you actually want versus what you feel you *should* want based on societal, family, or other pressures. Those things don’t matter in the end!

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12. Just adding to comments that the tenor of the new website is a little off-putting. But I tend to dislike website changes that seem to go from comfortable and homey to more “professional.” I understand the reason for the changes, but…
    Meanwhile, it seems like the focus on hiring her comes after her husband fully retired. If their goal was to retire early, it seems like they did that but are now looking to make more money. Not sure I fully understand goals anymore.

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    1. Agreed.
       I know the world changes and us with it. However, when I saw the big graphical messages before the content, my first thought was it seems overpowering and desperate and I wondered how well the Frugalwoods were doing financially — not a thought you want in reader’s heads when you’re trying to sell them on the benefit of your financial planning advice.
       I completely understand to wanting to work even if you’re well positioned for full retirement as I’m in that position myself. I still work even though I have 36x my current gross income in savings and a small pension at retirement age. But I don’t think the site has the strong center and voice that it had a month ago. It’s holding onto some popular items that support Liz’s transition to a non-credentialed financial consultant. And that’s ok—People change, websites change, businesses change, goals change. But I know I’ll probably get slammed for that but it’s the same sort of tough love that Liz has given to recipients of her financial advice.

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       1. Wow. Judge much?
          Liz has earned a living writing since leaving formal employment. In a since, she is not retired at all but financially free. And she is 100% free to use her website to promote her consultancy business. She could have had this site laden with banner ads etc. like many others do.
          I am sure she will survive if you stop consuming her free content.

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    2. You make excellent points.

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13. Most utility companies offer a budget arrangement in which you pay the same amount each month until the twelfth month, when you pay a slightly larger or smaller amount to zero out the balance of the year’s charges. Then the payment resets and you start a new year. This makes budgeting much easier, it doesn’t cost anything, and is easy to set up — just call customer service. We have been doing this for over 40 years and find it vastly useful to keep monthly expenses level. I suggest you look into it for your electricity bill to avoid winter spikes.

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    1. Some do – I used to do budget for natural gas.. until the “budget” amount was adjusted quarterly. Told them to take a hike. I paid a flat amount monthly for over 10 years and only one time did I owe a few bucks when natural gas spiked to $1.00 and change per BTU. Budget was auto debit to boot so now the company gets to deal with my check every month.
       I don’t think they are doing all that bad but I agree get married. Employer benefits and social security are worth it (I’m on the fence re: pre-nup). And P&C insurance might be less expensive. I will say being a non “traditional” couple is less stressful today than it was for my uncles 45+ years ago. They are still together today and doing well.
       Agree that what I call the pimp for hiring is an annoyance.

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14. I agree with Liz and many of the comments, prenup for sure and make debt repayment a priority. I would say the next step is to refine your interest and next steps in a degree program only if it leads to more professional options/upgrades.

    In my opinion, once you get the debt paid off, get in the habit of not getting into consumer debt if at all possible–(mortgage and school debt not included). It seems to weigh on you guys, like it is a bad habit you wish would just go away. But this is just like any behavior, recognize it, address it, make it a positive attribute of your shared vision.

    As for the new “frugalwoods”-you go Liz!!!! Change is hard, but growth is everything!!!

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15. First off – I want to say how sorry I am for the loss of your kitty. We’re currently dealing with expensive vet bills ourselves, so my heart goes out to you – it’s not an easy thing to deal with at all. One of the things we’ve always done with our pets is have a separate “pet fund” that we deposit money into each and every month from the time we adopt our pets. The only thing we use ours for is unexpected vet bills and prescriptions they need as they grow older. Any other needs they have come out of our regular budget, but this way when life happens it’s so much easier to handle knowing the money is there to pay for whatever medical needs our cat has without straining our budget.

    Make sure you’ve got all of your medical power of attorney, financial power of attorney and wills in order as well as any beneficiaries for things like 401ks, insurance, etc. People tend to blow those off, but they are so very important to protect each other and make it easier for people to help you if you need it. A friend of ours had a very serious accident and we were his power of attorney. He wasn’t able to speak for himself, but we’d had discussions with him and knew what he wanted and were able to advocate for him. Relatives came out of the woodwork insisting they knew best and were responsible for his care – but because he had signed those documents, we were the ones legally responsible, which is exactly as he wanted. In the absence of having them, he would’ve had people he didn’t like and hadn’t spoken to in years making those decisions.

    One last thing – life is so much easier if you don’t compare yourself to what everyone else around you is doing. There’s no one right way to live your life, and no milestones you have to reach by a certain age. If you are enjoying what you’re doing and the people you have surrounded yourself with – that is absolutely amazingly awesome and you should be proud. Thank you for sharing your case study – you’ve got so much to be proud of in your lives and I hope your future is a bright one. 🙂

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    1. This is an excellent comment! Seconding all of this!

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16. Calculate what an hour of take-home pay is (i.e. for Brian ~$29.30). Then when tempted to purchase something I like to think about it in terms of hours of work. Would I really want to put in an extra two hours of work for this throw blanket that will probably get pilly after a few washes or the cat will destroy shortly? No, no I probably wouldn’t. That and the wait and see approach to purchases where I make myself wait before buying things are very helpful.

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    1. I love this. It really helps to identify that stuff actually costs actual money- not when you’re in the store swiping the credit card but for months afterwards. Using the credit card also means you might end up paying 17% interest on that little fun item unless you pay off the credit card in full every month.

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17. You two are doing a great job! To be in your 30’s and have a loving partner, pets, no roommates, AND hobbies????? Give yourself credit for what you’ve already achieved and I wish you the best in your continued financial journey!

    Liz, I think the new website looks great! The text is very readable and as a long time reader I’m so happy for you taking time and space to prioritize your own growth, especially after all the time you’ve spent helping others grow 🙂

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    1. Hear hear!

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18. Hi Brian
    Just saw this article on LinkedIn and thought you might be interested – highlights the importance of finding a cost effective option.

    https://www.linkedin.com/news/story/is-graduate-degree-still-worth-it-5496585/

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19. I would suggest downloading and looking at a year or two’s worth of credit card statements. Ponder each purchase from the view of was this lunch/marathon fee/book worth it to still be paying for *now* as well as paying interest. Sure the UHaul rental for your move was necessary, but probably not a lot of the things you’re still paying off.

    I suspect that a chunk of the “missing” income was spent on hobbies. Maybe I missed it but although they are book and music collectors I didn’t see a specific line item for “books”, or “albums” or “concerts”.

    I would also look for any available 0% credit card offers. Don’t use it as a way to ignore the debt for another year (not saying you would) but as a means save a little interest while aggressively paying off the debt.

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20. I like the new web site and applaud Liz promoting her services.
    Yep, it is different and a lot of us long time readers have to adjust.
    But Liz has been offering free content and advice for YEARS and well she’s allowed to make a living from it.
    Go girl! You are doing a great job.

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21. I don’t see a graduate degree being in Brian’s best interest UNLESS he has a specific reason for doing so and job in mind. Someone else mentioned it as well, but if he does decide to pursue it, there are many options in Europe that are way cheaper than the US, plus what a fun adventure!

    Books – I love books and reading as well, plus the look of a library. To allow you to continue reading, for now anyway, go check out your local library. That’ll save you $$!

    Good job to both of you for tackling your debt now. I hope you’re able to pull in that spending and look at it as an experiment to find free/cheap ways to have fun. Host a dinner party w/friends instead of going out, for example. Rotate the dinner party around and don’t worry about the size of the homes… it’s about the company! If there is a particular thing you enjoy like concerts, athletic events, museums, plays, etc look into volunteering. You can often get to experience the event, but not have to pay for it as a reward. Just a few thoughts. 😉

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22. Wow, saw the super critical posts the “hire me” message from Liz and I thought what did I miss.

    So just want back and read post again and STILL couldn’t find a “hire me” message. Are there trolls now hitting these accounts?

    I kinda miss the cozy style of previous Case Studies but understand Liz is moving into a more professional role and updated the web site accordingly. Well done Liz! (I’m sure we’ll all adjust, being the big girls and boys we are 🤗)

    And thanks, Liz, for linking to updates! I’ve always wondered how the people did w their consults and now I can go find out. Brian and Michael you’re doing great! Will also add the counseling and both work should stay as an integral part of your wellness process. And agree w Liz to stop a lot of the other stuff. Until you reach your goals at least. Then add back what’s of most value. Like gifting etc but modestly.

    Another great post!

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    1. The hire me message is right under her picture towards the top of the page before it really gets into the case study.

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23. I think the new website looks very nice. Doesn’t bother me a bit for Liz to remind me what her time is worth if I need her full attention.

    Therapy and massage are funny. They have this reputation for being rich-people things, and therefore unnecessary. But that really just means we live in a society where some truly necessary things appear to be only for the rich. If I miss my appointment and get into a downward health spiral that loses me my job, well, that was a necessary thing. Only the individual can say.

    Thank you, Brian and Michael, for sharing.

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    1. Well said!

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24. Actually I think the addition of the “hire me” link in the middle of the case study is pretty reasonable. This blog, unlike almost any other blog, has basically zero advertising. There are occasional affiliate links and that’s about it. Other than that, the blog is clean and well-organized; easy to read and no pop-ups. Very rare in personal blogging space for this to be the case these days. One clean “rates bar” in the middle of an article (not even a pop up!) doesn’t seem like that big a deal. Also, I’m impressed that she’s so transparent about her rates. True desperation is when people force you to click and fill out personal information in order to send you their rates so that they can then bombard you with email advertisements for eternity.

    I suspect that Liz has been inundated by strangers (perfectly nice strangers, but strangers nonetheless) asking for free advice for the past decade. She has run several free programs for internet strangers (the uber frugal month challenges). She has done dozens (hundreds?) of detailed case studies for free. After all this time and experience, it makes sense that she is setting a boundary: if you want advice, here’s how much it costs. Take it or leave it. My guess is that as a busy mom of two small children, she has calculated what price for an hour is worth it to her, and it’s a fairly high price, which makes perfect sense to me.

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25. If either employer offers a company match then contribute enough to get that and of course make the necessary pension contribution. Beyond that, paying off the consumer debt is more important than additional retirement contributions at this time. A larger cash savings is also important. Nothing wrong with renting so I would put off the home purchase for several years at least. Pay off the debt, get married and go on a reasonable honeymoon, build a emergency savings, buy a new car for Brian since he needs one for work and his is old and having issues. Then you can look into buying a home focusing on Brian’s job as a place to get a home since he makes the big money and has to go to a physical work place every day. No need for Michael to go back to school, they make plenty of money, just need to reduce spending. Good luck.

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26. My two cents is if you want to get married then do it! Also if you want a party don’t wait!
    Please don’t wait for the reception, if you want a party. It doesn’t have to be expensive and it doesn’t have to look like any reception you have ever been to. I have a friend that “rented a field” for the solar eclipse. Some folks are camping, some are staying nearby and coming for the eclipse. They are providing drinks and some snacks, nothing fancy. Everyone is genuinely excited about hanging out for the eclipse and celebrating their relationship.

    Just brainstorming (and some of these need work):
    Scavenger hunt or “escape room” at your local library or maybe a favorite bookstore.
    Group camping/nature thing you both enjoy
    Rent a boat for the afternoon and have a party
    Potluck in a favorite park
    “Adopt” an community lot or highway program and invite your friends to a work day planting native flowers and plants (the folks that don’t want to dig in the dirt would probably still love to come hangout and spend time with you all. Tell them to bring a chair and supervise… I mean socialize)

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27. “Brian feels that professional help is needed to ensure our individual and shared goals are achievable and don’t become dreams forever deferred.” This is the heart of this case study; both men feel like the financial life they are living right now will prevent them from realizing their dreams. I would encourage more long term professional help on this front – a financial therapist/coach or someone similar who can help this couple move beyond the financial patterns they have created. Michael indicated that he is ready to do some soul-searching. Yes.

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28. As many have said already, didn’t really like the HIRE ME portion at the top… It’s totally fine to advertize but maybe not in that spot since the case studies are the ones you do for free, no?
    Also the new design for me is a bit of a turn off, I guess I’m old fashioned but I liked the wholesome look, it made you very relatable. This new corporate look is not my cup of tea. I know the content is the same but it really feels like a business now and that’s not what I prefer I guess.
    Michael and Brian, you’re doing well! Just focus on paying your debt, you can do it! And then anything is possible. 🙂

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29. A sincere question for Liz that perhaps you can explain more in a future post or point to where you have explained this in the past: You are advertising your services for a financial consultation. But in the intro to the case study you write:

    “And a disclaimer that I am not a trained financial professional and I encourage people not to make serious financial decisions based solely on what one person on the internet advises. “

    What is the difference between what you are offering privately and the advice you are giving in the case study?

    Thank you from a long time follower!

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    1. Yes, I was going to comment to say exactly this. She also still says that ‘I am not a financial advisor and I am not your financial advisor’. But now she has a business model to be…your financial advisor?

       Liz, I think there’s a disconnect between what you’ve always said with the case studies and your new business model, and you might need to rethink this section.

       Also, I fully support Liz’s pivot towards offering paid advice – I’m sure she’s built up an incredible store of knowledge over the years she’s been writing Frugalwoods and if she now wants to build a business doing something she obviously loves to do, more power to her. The free content is still here and free (and free from ads/pop ups, sponsored posts, etc, as someone noted above).

       People have criticized Liz in the past for monthly spending reports when they feel she’s been living a too-indulgent lifestyle and honestly Liz, the criticism about the blog changes is coming from the same place – readers who think you should always be providing the same content you originally provided (including your extreme frugality…even after you achieved the goals that frugality was meant to help achieve!).

       I want to draw a parallel with Modern Mrs Darcy’s summer reading guide which she stopped giving away for free this year (largely because of how big it’s become and how much work goes into making it) and which she also clearly felt so conflicted about doing this she made an elaborate video to explain and she got a substantial amount of criticism on her blog. It’s not ok to assume we have the right to demand women’s labour for free. These are not just blogs now – they’re businesses – and the kick ass women who run them are allowed to charge for their work (and charge what they are worth).

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30. In response to all the ridiculous hullabaloo about having to scroll a tiny bit extra past your new consultation offers— Liz, you are a professional and your work deserves to be treated as such. I’m pretty sure that those of us who have been benefitting from your free humor and advice for years can manage a tiny bit of (understandable) self-promotion in this space. It makes complete sense when reading about others’ financial situations to want to better understand our own— and that’s where your services come in! I’d rather scroll past your offering than unrelated advertisements (but yes, the intros do involve quite a bit of scrolling on phone view 🙃). Congratulations on the new website!

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31. I have been a long time reader and have also found all the business info a little off setting. However, while reading these comments it did occur to me that when reading other blogs I have to constantly scroll past ads and little video ad screens pop up every few seconds that I have to close. I would much prefer a stationary “hire me” blurb that I can scroll past than ads that follow me all the way down the page and block the text on my screen 🙂

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32. Free content isn’t free. It costs her time to produce. Please be respectful of the authors time and effort by politely ignoring the advertisement if you aren’t interested. We come to this site to be entertained and educated and it shows poor gratitude for all the time she has gifted by complaining.

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    1. Well said Erin!

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33. I feel very saddened by the fact that Brian and Michael have asked for help and advice from this community but most of the comments have been focused on the new website. Isn’t this forum supposed to be about them?

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34. Liz, I don’t mind the section about hiring you. You have a lot of knowledge and people can pay you for it or not.
    Brian and Micheal: you have many things you can cut out and use that money to pay down your debt. Just follow Liz’s ideas, you got this. I would not go back to school. Get married if you want. Keep separate bank accounts. TRACK your expenses. Best wishes and happy life.

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35. Focus on paying down that debt but also not adding to it. We built emergency fund by focusing on one key area at a time so for you that might be adding money for vet bills and car repairs. I am amazed you had an apartment in CT under $1000 so sad to loose that. Now that rent has doubled, the need to track every penny and decide where to cut is needed and it will be eye opening.
    I disagree with frugalwoods that therapy and massage for pain are discretionary!! As someone with chronic illness and chronic pain these are essentials. Are there cheaper options? A LICSW covered by HMO or is chiropractic or acupuncture covered by health insurance or a clinic that charges a sliding scale?

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36. Ramit Sethi has great book I will teach you to be rich that very clearly outlines 6 step program to manage your money long term. I wish I would have read it 20 years ago! Highly recommend his book along with his podcasts which interview couples and really gets into the psychology of money.

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37. Just wanted to say that my son was engaged when the Roe decision leaked. He and his fiance planned a wedding in 3 weeks. The actual ceremony was my husband and I, the other groom’s parents, and friends who performed the ceremony and took pictures. They had a small reception at a local hotel with a cake, some bowls of nuts on the tables, and an open bar that my husband and I paid for as their gift. My son-in-law put together a spotify play list (they asked for requests on the invitation) and used his college party speaker to play it. We had a wonderful time and everyone commented what a good time it was. Their plan was to do it up small in case same-sex marriage became illegal again and have a larger ceremony at some point. What they planned and executed was so fun and meaningful that I don’t think they are even planning another ceremony, although they may have a blowout party on an anniversary. If you are sure about your decision to marry, I would get the legalities tied up. It’s awful that you even have to factor that in, but that seems to be the world we’re currently living in. Good luck!

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38. Dear Brian and Michael,

    Thank you for sharing with us, especially sharing your true feelings about your debt. That was a brave and, I hope, empowering step to take. In my experience, noticing/naming (with as little judgement as possible) is the first step toward real change. 🙂

    Speaking on change, you might find one or both of the following useful.
    1) BJ Fogg’s excellent info and skills re: clarifying intentions, setting goals, and establishing effective habits
    2) “Motivational Interviewing” can be a helpful process (“Motivational Interviewing: Helping People Change” by Miller & Rollnick & “Building Motivational Interviewing Skills: A Practitioner Workbook” by Rosengren). You could each do it separately (for your self and for the couple) and then compare and discuss results/findings.

    It’s so important to invest in your relationship (and each other). Here are some ideas.
    – Living with pain/tension: Try mutual couple self-care practices, such as mindful breathing, meditation, head/face massage, back scratches, acupressure points, etc.
    – Daily walk (tea date, after-work cuddle,…): start w/short and easy (so you do it daily); perhaps half of the time is for noticing/appreciating the world around you and the other half is for noticing/appreciating your partner (or mix it up in other ways to bring freshness and energy to your relationship).
    – Regular check-in: If check-ins prompt anxiety/discomfort, try cuddling/holding hands while talking and/or make it a lighthearted tradition with popcorn/snacks, date night activities, playing with the cats, etc. Remember: Our actions don’t always match our intentions. Also, it’s normal/nature to mistakes and need new info/skills.
    – Growth mindset: This mindset sees skills, intelligence, etc. as learnable and capable of improvement (vs “fixed mindset” which sees skills, intelligence, etc. as unchangeable, inherited, static.) With growth mindset, one could ask “what do I/we like, love, want more of” as well as “how could I/we be even stronger, effective, supportive” (vs. “is anything wrong”). See “Nonviolent Communication” for helpful and concrete communication tips and tools.
    – Cultivate intimacy/connection: There are many ways to do this, such as Mandy Len Catron’s love questions (https://www.ted.com/talks/mandy_len_catron_falling_in_love_is_the_easy_part).
    – Cultivate fun: I heard of a couple who make sure they have one low/no-cost “adventure” (their word) per month. You could weave doing this into enjoying your “treasures” – curate a music-listening date, take turns reading aloud from a book (could blindfold each other and try to guess the book), rotate the art/books/etc. on display (perhaps take turns creating an exhibit that will surprise/delight your partner), etc.
    – Regular couple “artist date”: A playful exploration of something that interests the two you; could also be setting aside time in which you just let curiosity and spontaneity lead the way (e.g., go someplace unfamiliar and see what you notice/experience).

    Connections to self (and one’s partner) provide a powerful compass for how we wish to live, relate, and cultivate a lasting legacy. Regardless of age, we’re always changing and every person (and relationship) has its own unique and worthy trajectory. Trust yourselves, you’ve got this!

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    1. I love these suggestions so much!

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39. As a practical matter, if you are counting on a future together and sharing finances, I hope you get married! Maybe that will also help to solidify your resolve to get your finances under control. 😀 Marriage is no absolute guarantee, but it is a commitment to the future. I am sure once you see clearly where your money is going (by budgeting and tracking expenses diligently) you will become excited about how much you can save. I went from achieving (temporary) satisfaction from buying things to LOVING how much I can save. You can do it!!!

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40. Lots of thoughts here. Starting with general/life comments:
    Firstly, I agree with FW that you have the most important components of a fulfilling life! Your family/pets, home, and hobbies sound wonderful, and you’re living in the general area you’d like to stay in. It sounds like a lot has been unstable recently with the apartment/pet changes, but you’ve worked through those well and have set yourself up with a great new situation. Give it some time to get accustomed to your new normal, and enjoy where you’re at, before stressing too much about what should change next!
    Secondly, Brian’s career seems to be one of the most unclear part of your plans. You say that you feel behind in life financially, professionally, and academically, but your salary is in the top 25% of both individuals and households, even in Connecticut, you have a stable job with incredibly good benefits, and you’ve paid off your student debt at a young age. If $ is the main concern, focus more on getting a good handle on your spending and financial planning, before focusing on career next steps. You may find that your career is already well-suited to your goals, once you feel better about your financial plan & have paid off your debt. On the other hand, if you don’t enjoy your career and want to make a change based on that, go ahead and work on that plan. You’ve listed a lot of ideas, so once you’re more settled into your new home and routines, spend some time (at minimum a few months) thinking about this. Talk to people in the field(s) your interested in to understand them better. Talk to your family about timing/expectations of taking over the family business. Talk to your employer about whether another degree is required to move up & whether they will pay for it. Discuss as a couple how your career plan relates to your other life goals (such as eventually living more rurally, and the impact of any job changes on your retirement planning), and what your priorities and goal timelines are.
    Thirdly, your finances seem to be mostly separate right now, and it seems like you are pretty different in terms of saving & spending. It’s so good & important that you’re looking at your financial plans and trying to align them more, before getting legally married or buying a house! Make sure you discuss what, if anything, will change, if you take either of those steps. If you determine that don’t want to integrate your finances (including debts & assets) more, and if you don’t need to share benefits, you may decide not to marry for now, or at least to get a good prenup.
    Finally, try to gain contentedness from making progress towards your financial goals, rather than from having “more”. Less debt is an accomplishment! More savings is an accomplishment! Be proud of where you are at, and what you are working towards. My advice for savings priorities: 1. Pay off debt, so that you’re not losing $ to interest every month. 2. Improve your emergency fund. Once you’ve paid off your debt, your monthly spending is $6K, so aim for at least $18K in your emergency fund. 3. Save towards your other financial goals, in order of your personal priorities / plans for timing. It seems that you both want to prioritize buying a home, so you will probably focus on that. Start a down payment savings category, and enjoy working together to watch it grow!

    Now for my list of various ideas for creative ways to reduce spending while keeping what’s important to you. Take what’s useful and ignore the rest 🙂

    Cars:
    -Do you have plans for replacing the car(s) when needed, since they have pretty high mileage? Consider starting a savings category for this (similar to your holiday savings category) and doing some planning for when / how much this will be.
    -Do you actually use/want both cars? It’s fine if you do, but it sounds like Michael hardly uses his. If Michael could use Brian’s car occasionally, selling the second car would be $ in your pocket and $100/month of savings, which you may prefer to spend on your other financial goals.
    -Have you looked into whether it’s cost-effective to keep repairing the cars, or when it will make sense to sell them (even for parts) and replace them instead of doing repairs? It seems like it won’t stay quite this high (& some is train?), but $1000/month (as an 8-month average -> at least $8K in the past year) is a lot of car-related spending for a car that’s worth ~$2-5K.

    “Stuff”:
    -Get rid of that Amazon subscription! All it will do is encourage you to spend more!
    -Your hobbies seem cheap/free, other than buying new treasures. Can you lean into doing your hobbies rather than buying, for a while? Read through more of your collection, hike or take walks together, etc.
    -I try to hunt many of my treasures for free, which keeps the fun of new finds and adds a nice element of surprise, while drastically limiting the spending. This helps me to be content with what I have! Good resources: Your local Buy Nothing group (I’ve gotten lots of home goods and some clothing & personal care stuff from mine). Find all the Little Free Libraries in your area (I’ve found not just books, but games & puzzles!). Attend a clothing swap. Borrow books from loved ones. Use the local library & Libby for books for a while, at least until the debt is paid down.
    -You seem creative (drawing & learning) – could you make decor for the apartment out of free/cheap finds, rather than buying home goods? Much of my furniture was free from Craiglist, Buy Nothing, or post-yard-sale free stuff.
    -If you want something in particular and can’t find it on Buy Nothing / similar, wait a week or more before buying it, to make sure that you really want it. Try to find it used if you can (Goodwill or other resale shops, eBay, Craigslist). Does your family do gift wish lists? If I don’t need something quickly, I add it to a list of gift ideas for myself, so that I can reference the list to ask for things I actually want, when loved ones ask what to get me for birthday/holidays.

    Other:
    -If therapy and pain management are important to your health, these are NOT discretionary! Instead, I would look at these as “reducable”. Could you reduce the frequency or duration of appointments without significantly impacting the benefit? Can you get massages cheaper via groupon or students/trainees? Could you learn to do massage for each other at home? Do you have good medical coverage to do PT to work on pain management instead of massage? There is often massage at PT in addition to stretches/exercises; PT has helped me to stop needing massages.
    -Eating out: Is this for fun, or is some of this for convenience? Avoid convenience eating-out by bringing snacks/bars when you go places or leaving them in the car, and by having easy-to-prep/microwave food at home that is cheaper than take-out. Try Trader Joes for well-priced food including yummy frozen meals.
    -Gifts: If you’re open to it, talked to loved ones about whether you all might prefer reduced gift-giving. Often, everyone would like that, once someone brings it up!

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    1. I commented this before reading the other comments. I’m so glad that others also pointed out that therapy and pain management are medical costs, not discretionary costs! Hopefully Ms FW will change how she categorizes these in the future.

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41. You guys are doing just fine and I dont think 34 is too old or too far behind most other people. Pay off those credit cards and then really start paying yourselves moving forward. Maybe consider buying some dividend producing stocks like Coca-Cola, McDonalds, and Procter and Gamble and just reinvest those dividend payments. You’ll look in 15-20 years and have over 1 Mil if you really buckle down and invest. Just a warning tho, dividend investing is addictive, but it is soooo fun to watch the compounding of money! Good Luck!

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42. Hi everyone! This is Michael from the case study! Brian and I have each been sick and had extra work projects, so we apologize for our delay in getting back to you all with comments and follow up responses. Thank you all SO MUCH for your thoughtful and kind responses, we appreciate it! We will be following up soon!

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43. Another great case study – thank you Liz. It’s always helpful to see what you recommend to others, as well as giving me a moment to pause and get perspective on my own financial situation and goals.

    My comment would be for Michael and Brian to be realistic about what their personal, regular expenses are. This is a very basic example: Michael needs new, good quality running shoes every 12 months. You can then split the estimated cost of these over the year. Once you do this with all regular costs, you can get a good handle on:
    1. What you really value; and
    2. What your real costs are.
    I found this approach very helpful and apply it to be household costs and my own personal, more “discretionary” costs which give me joy. It will help with the feast/ famine mentality too.

    I cannot believe how negative comments on the “hire me” function are. It seems incredibly entitled and frankly unpleasant that readers who have been getting heaps of free content for years would write these comments. There is a human making this blog who will read these comments! The Frugalwoods blog and Liz’s book have been both a delight to read as well as made a real difference to my financial situation. And all I paid was for the book! Which you could have got from a library if you wanted… It’s an absolute bargain and kudos to Liz for marketing her services whilst maintaining free content which she has absolutely no obligation to do. Keep up the good work Liz and thank you!

    Also, the new website is much easier to format on my phone so that is helpful.

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44. Where’d ya go, Liz? You haven’t posted in months?

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    1. I’m here wondering the same. I hope everything is ok!

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45. I’ve read quite a few comments about the ‘advert’ and the long intro. Personally I don’t mind at all, I can just scroll. However if Liz is interested in organic search engine performance then these pages will do a lot better without the repeated preamble. Search engines give more weight to the content “before the fold” – the first couple of paragraphs. With a long preamble repeated on all case studies search engines are likely to firstly miss the useful content and secondly consider the case studies to be duplicate content and potentially downrate the pages. I’d suggest moving all the preamble to a separate page and a one sentence disclaimer/new reader containing a link to that page. Then have the advert (which would probably annoy people less if there’s less overall preamble until the real content) then straight into the case study.

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46. Awfully quiet here, hope you are ok Liz, gr. Marij

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47. The Fire community is changing…..I was so excited about Econome after listening to the latest episode of ChooseFI but when I went to sign up I got so frustrated. Half a grand for the conference? Really? Once more I realize that the old frugal days of the FIRE movement is over and now it’s about showing off what they call “quality of life” and “value spending”. I feel like this is not my community anymore! Where are those who seek FIRE through hard savings and living WELL below their means? Frugals and minimalists? It seems everyone in the community is already at fat FI/a multimillionaires w/ their Teslas, and we beginners or struggling low middle class are left out once again! Sorry about the rant but I wish so badly I had a place in this community.

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48. Why hasn’t there been any news for months? What is happening?

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